Talk:Heavy metal music

"Extreme heterosexualist ideology"

"Attendees of metal concerts do not dance in the usual sense. It has been argued that this is due to the music's largely male audience and "extreme heterosexualist ideology".

What is this statement, besides ridicilous? Wolfram1987 (talk) 19:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the references, it appears to be referenced from the writings of published author Deena Weinstein (PhD). Sergecross73 msg me 20:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

"Largely male" is fair, but to describe a subculture where Judas Priest and Queen are as revered as they are in metal circles as "extreme heterosexualist", well...Maybe it "has been argued", but including that in the article seems like giving it undue weight. Rob Halfords own wiki-page mentions that "Halford has previously spoken about the level of acceptance of his sexuality within the metal community, calling it accepting and inclusive.", and on the subject matter I'm prepared to say that "being Rob Halford" lends more credibility to speak on this particular subject than does "has a PhD in Sociology". Wolfram1987 (talk) 21:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

The commentary is in reference to the genre in a general sense. Anecdotes from a non-heterosexual frontman don't discredit it on a whole. You'd be better off trying to add a counterpoint from Halford than trying to delete the criticism wholesale. Sergecross73 msg me 21:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thats really stupid. 2603:6011:F400:DAC:D8E7:7874:6DFB:9228 (talk) 12:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

"Bienver metal" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Bienver metal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 13 § Bienver metal until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 18:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Genre

Metal is not a subgenre of Rock it mostly in style spun off of blues and classical, if you listen to the founding fathers of the genre. 2603:6011:F400:DAC:D8E7:7874:6DFB:9228 (talk) 12:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Counterfactual statement about metal's "dominance" in the 1980s

Czello has repeatedly reverted my attempts to fix problematic text. The text makes the preposterous claim that the 1980s was "the era of heavy metal's mainstream dominance". Any scan of the charts from the age blows massive holes in the argument, as well as the preponderance of articles and videos from the period talking about metal's outsider or social outcast status. Weinstein's Heavy Metal:The Music and its Culture, already cited dozens of times in the article, describes the 1980s metal community as "marginilized from the mainstream", and other sources also cited in the article make similar statements.

The text doesn't need to be fixed—it serves no purpose and can be safely removed. Nothing more needs to be said than what the article already tells us: trends changed—Glam metal fell out of favour, while other metal genres saw greater activity and sales. It's puzzling why anyone would repeatedly revert to save such a pointlessly counterfactual piece of text in what's already an over-long article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• Any scan of the charts from the age blows massive holes in the argument This is WP:OR
• as well as the preponderance of articles and videos from the period talking about metal's outsider or social outcast status you would have to cite these, but it's worth nothing that music can enjoy mainstream popularity while still being considered outsider. Indeed that has often been the appeal of popular metal.
• Weinstein's Heavy Metal:The Music and its Culture... You'd have to give a more specific citation here, as I can't see where marginilized from the mainstream appears – regardless (see next point)
• The fact that metal enjoyed mainstream popularity is very well cited – in fact, have you noticed we have an entire section called Mainstream: late 1970s and 1980s? There's a much wider discussion you'd have to open here about whether metal was mainstream in the 80s.

— Czello ^(music) 10:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The citation is page 139 of Weinstein's book. Deena Weinstein, a PhD with her own Wikipedia article.

"The fact that metal enjoyed mainstream popularity" is not what the disputed text is about.

"There's a much wider discussion you'd have to open here about whether metal was mainstream in the 80s": no there isn't, because again, this is not what the disputed text is about.

Please stay on topic. The disputed text is:

"The era of heavy metal's mainstream dominance in North America came to an end in the early 1990s"

This is counterfactual, as (a) metal was not "dominant" in the 1980s, and (b) metal continued to sell throughout the 1990s, as the article itself tells us (with numerous citations).

The text paints a false narrative and needs to be removed. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll note that Weinstein also supports this statement, see the citation.

However, if your issue is solely with that word then, as I said in my first edit summary, rewording it (depending on what, exactly, the original source says) would be the ideal solution. Of course, we need to not misrepresent what the original sources say, but it could well be the contradiction isn't as great as you're perceiving. On that note, what is the exact quote that Weinstein says in her book? Is she specficially talking about the 80s? As it'd be odd that she'd contradict herself in the same book. Similarly, if all sources are in direct contradiction this can also be highlighted in the article. The best thing, I think, would be to investigate what the quote is in the Christe. Do we know who added it? — Czello ^(music) 10:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

pg 139: "These descriptions support the view presented here that the heavy metal subculture is distinctive and marginalized from the mainstream." She gives examples exclusively from the 1980s: "a 1982, suburban, middle-class graduate", "A 1989 graduate from an upper-middle-class high school", "A 1984 graduate of an upper-middle-class high school", "a 1989 graduate from a public high school" ...

"if your issue is solely with that word then"---I've made it explicitly clear that the issue is not the word, but the premise. The Wikipedia article itself contradicts the premise: metal did not die out, only the trends within metal changed.

You can't seriously be arguing that the article should continue to contradict itself. Why are you even fighting this? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That comment is about subculture, not the genre. — Czello ^(music) 11:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The Weinstein source you say is contradicting herself is Heavy Metal: A Cultural Sociology published in 1991. A book published in 1991 would not claim Grunge overtook Metal. Grunge hadn't broken through yet. Nevermind didn't top the charts until January 1992.

Now please remove the text. You have no basis to stand on, and the Wikipedia article contradicts itself. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say she was contradicting herself; I actually said that'd be odd. Regardless, you seem to be engaging in WP:OR again. Earlier in this thread you were talking about her credentials, now you're discrediting her statement based on when the book was published. Which is it? Is she a reliable source, or not? — Czello ^(music) 11:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

"you're discrediting her statement"—No, she obviously never made the statement, and you can't demonstrate she did. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the Christe source talks about how metal continued to sell, despite the mainstream media devoting its attention to Grunge. Neither source cited supports the statement in the text. It needs to be removed. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Since you're making it obvious you're going to drag your feet over this, here's the exact quote:

"In spite of Time magazine's assessment of a great grunge takeover, Nirvana's Nevermind sold only 5 million copies in America by the end of 1993, while the Black Album sold 7 million. This ratio tilted more extremely in Metallica’s favor as the 1990s progressed. Grunge could not even shake the hold of Hollywood bad boys Mötley Crüe, who squeezed another 7 million in sales out of the American public even after the release of Nevermind."

"What grunge did accomplish in the early 1990s was making a large enough splash to permit the mainstream media an excuse to once again ignore heavy metal."

Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

To be clear, is this the Christe quote?

Also, please mind WP:CIVIL. You've been belligerent this whole time, and it wouldn't be the first time civility has been raised with you, so cool it a little. — Czello ^(music) 12:08, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It's the Christe quote. Neither citation supports the text, so now please remove the unsupported and counterfactual text. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:15, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Or I'll just do it myself. I've only reverted once, and the text is clearly problematic, so it wouldn't be a WP:3RR violation. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:32, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I took a look at the section in the 2001 version of Weinstein's book (which is what should be cited, not the 1991 version). I couldn't access the cited pages by Christe. Weinstein explicitly says that the mainstream market for metal was mostly "lite metal", also known as 1970s hard rock. And says that this market was overtaken by grunge and hip-hop. I think "dominance" is a bit overstating the case. If that's what Christe says, I would put it as a quote and attribute it to him. Otherwise, re-write the sentence as "the popularity of metal was overtaken in the early 1990s by the music of Nirvana and other grunge acts, signaling the popular breakthrough of alternative rock.[257]" I would also recommend adding a sentence or two about hip-hop as well.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This seems like a good suggestion to me (and, again, what I was angling towards when I suggested rewording the statement). I'd be happy for the sentence to be rewritten as suggested above; "dominance", again, doesn't seem to actually appear which is why I'm of the view this word can go. Also good point on the 2001/1991 discrepancy, which addresses a point made earlier. — Czello ^(music) 12:53, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Burden

The burden should be on those making the disputed claim, especially when there are (a) the article itself contradicts the claims; and (b) other sources contradict the claim. Either of these points should be sufficient to see the claim removed immediately.

The fact that one editor with hand at the "undo" button can force others to jump through so many hoops to fix what's demonstrably broken is one of the many reasons Wikipedia has such a poor reputation for its reliability. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BRD, please stop griping and stay on topic. — Czello ^(music) 11:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)